Amazon Web Services dropped WikiLeaks material from its servers on Tuesday, a move that is widely assumed to be a direct response to pressure from the Senate Homeland Security Committee. A statement from Amazon disputed that, stating that they kicked WikiLeaks off for violating the terms of service: “For example, our terms of service state that ‘you represent and warrant that you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the content that use of the content you supply does not violate this policy and will not cause injury to any person or entity.’”
It’s not the first time the company has pulled something like this. Just last year, Amazon “remotely deleted” the e-editions of two books that customers had already downloaded to their Kindle readers, after it was discovered that the books’ seller did not have the rights to them. (And just their luck: the public relations headache that resulted from the deletion was no doubt amplified by the fact that the two books in question happened to be by George Orwell.) As Gawker’s Ryan Tate notes, Amazon’s policy of which content partners it will protect, and when, and why, is inconsistent and unpredictable, to say the least.
TechPresident’s Micah Sifry reported Wednesday that, according to the Senate Homeland Security Committee spokesperson Leslie Phillips, the committee has not contacted any other tech companies whose services WikiLeaks has utilized, like Twitter or Facebook. However, Phillips added, “Senator Lieberman hopes that what has transpired with Amazon will send a message to other companies.”
At least one other company got that “message” loud and clear. Open-source data visualization program Tableau Public also removed WikiLeaks-published visualizations from its site, a decision which a statement on the Tableau website acknowledges was made in response to the public request by Lieberman to do so.
So what does that mean for the rest of us? CJR assistant editor Lauren Kirchner spoke with Ethan Zuckerman, researcher for the Berkman Center for Internet and Society—who has written about the tricky intersection of public space (the Internet) and private infrastructure (service providers)—about the broader implications of this news.
Why do you think WikiLeaks chose Amazon servers in the first place?
My guess is that it’s a very easy way to buy a lot of server capacity really fast. I mean, WikiLeaks was facing two things at the same time: they were under tremendous load, probably in the neighborhood of ten to fifteen gigabits per second of traffic, and at the same time they were experiencing a DDos [distributed denial-of-service] attack of two to four gigabits per second the first time around, and about ten the second time around. It’s a pretty common tactic when you’re under DDoS to try to get onto a pretty big server farm. If you’re both trying to serve an enormous amount of traffic and cope with DDos, Amazon makes very good sense, actually. You’re going to pay for it, but I don’t think that was their big constraint; their big constraint was trying to stay up in the face of all the interest in the documents.
To what extent is a company like Amazon legally responsible for documents it hosts?
That is an incredibly complicated question. Everything has to go under the I Am Not a Lawyer disclaimer here. Essentially, there are real questions about what the legal liability is, in dealing with any of the WikiLeaks material. Different lawyers might answer that question very differently. Generally speaking, though, there are a good number of protections of internet service providers against things like copyright infringement, through things like the DMCA [Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998], which basically says, as long as you follow this process correctly, you’re not going to be held liable for contributory copyright infringement. But to the best of my knowledge, no one’s put anything together essentially saying, here’s the policy you should go through if you are alerted that you are holding government secrets. I think where I and Rebecca [MacKinnon] and others have criticized Amazon’s move is that it’s not clear that they actually received any legal notice; it sounds like what it amounted to was essentially just political pressure.
I know this is just conjecture here, but if Amazon had pushed back against the Senate Homeland Security Committee, do you think the Committee would have threatened legal action? What’s the nature of the threat there?
The interesting thing about it is, the actual cables, the actual data in question, wasn’t being distributed on Amazon servers. That’s being hosted on a peer-to-peer network, so what Amazon was distributing was basically the index page: ‘here’s what we have, here’s the link to the torrent files.’ So the truth is, you’d have a hard time getting an injunction saying that Amazon was contributing to espionage or to the dissemination of stolen goods, because in fact, all they were really doing was hosting the HTML page that said, here’s how to go get this on bit torrent. As far as we can tell, no one did take legal action to force Amazon’s hand; it just responded to pressure. All of that, to me, makes it look pretty egregious, and should raise some questions for anyone who’s a customer of Amazon’s web services.
When WikiLeaks got the boot from Amazon, they wrote on Twitter, “If Amazon is so uncomfortable with the First Amendment, they should get out of the business of selling books.” Do you consider this a First Amendment issue?



I don't know, Lauren. It was a good and interesting interview, but I question your inflammatory use of the word "caved." That's the kind of statement that an advocate or activist would use in a case like this. And the interview didn't really support your use of the word. I realize that you have a lot of latitude here on CJR, and generally I think that's great, but with the latitude you also have responsibility. You presented no evidence that this was anything but a business decision, and a decision that I am grateful for and support. So the "caved" thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, personally.
#1 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 10:58 AM
James:
If, as you posit, all that happened here is that Amazon booted controversial content because they feared it would hurt their bottom line, I don't see why "caved" would be an inappropriate word to describe the situation. "Caving to commercial pressures" is a common phrase, no?
#2 Posted by Clint Hendler, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 01:39 PM
Amazon already pulled a product because of massive public backlash against it and threats of boycott - them being wary of a repitition of that only a few weeks afterward doesn't surprise me at all. At least this time they didn't announce they wouldn't censor, then silently pulled the product anyway after enough twitter backlash.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/amazon-removes-pedophilia-book-store/story?id=12119035
Not that I'm a big fan of the book's subject matter, but I think the press should remember Amazon's self-censorship for a longer period of time than they have, instead of quietly forgetting it just because it's a book no upstanding person can be seen defending in any way without being attacked for doing so.
#3 Posted by Irk, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 02:28 PM
@Clint,
I take your point that "caving to commercial pressure" is widely used. I guess any responsible business decision can be characterized as "caving" in that case. But isn't there enough wild and irresponsible rhetoric out there already? There is no evidence that Amazon was "pressured." It's entirely possible that Amazon management is personally so appalled at what these criminals have done that they wanted no part of hosting such controversial material. I would react exactly the same way, with or without outside pressure.
Talking Points Memo just accused the Library of Congress of "cravenly" "compromising their core mission in the face of political pressure" by restricting their staff, researchers, and the public from accessing Wikileaks on their computers. I think this is a wildly irresponsible accusation as well.
The case has not been made, in my opinion, that the Wikileak leak has been a positive in any sense of the word. It is not a first amendment issue, the damage it has done to our national security and international affairs has not been fully realized or assessed. This is not a game but a serious, serious breach, and I'd expect respectable media venues to treat it that way.
I'm disappointed in both CJR and TPM, two internet news and media venues that I respect a lot, for engaging in unsubstaniated speculation and unfounded, inflammatory accusations without evidence. But that's just me. Thanks for responding.
#4 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 03:22 PM
That's totally unjustified, unsupported thinking, Ethan. Amazon has a contract. They are arguably violating it in all kinds of ways; the AUP exclusions are, also arguably, illegal, extralegal or unenforceable (except in the US's current political context). If I, as a maker of a contract, include a clause that I and I alone can terminate it "at will..." that's not really a contract, and problematic in so many way, including that the stronger party presenting the contract, clearly is abusing the former.
Equally, your accepting the 'negative publicity' argument forwarded by Amazon, is what it is-- also, simply unsupported. It's a nice excuse, it sounds good, it convinces fools, but in the end, it is an excuse.
#5 Posted by Kenneth Thomas, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 03:53 PM
@Clint,
The case has not been made, in my opinion, that the Wikileak leak has done actual damage to our national security or international affairs. Where has it actually hurt any relations? Do American's think that other countries don't have intelligence services that didn't already perceive everything that is being released? I have not seen anything that indicates that other countries or officials have been suprised by anything that has been released.
It would be irresponsible for our media to not cover the story they way they have been.
#6 Posted by Mark, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 04:42 PM
We will not know, and can not know, the full scope of what kind of damage this massive breach has done to the US and to our partners, allies, and adversaries around the world. It will take years to assess the damage, and nobody knows, and nobody *can* know in a mere week -- not the Dept of State, not the White House, not the New York Times, and certainly not random commenters who pull opinions out of their ear on a blog. We are still learning about the damage that Aldrich Ames and John Walker inflicted, these many years later. And the person who stole these documents and gave them to Wikileaks, Manning or whoever it was, is every bit the traitor as Ames and Walker.
I have no problem with the manner in which the New York Times and others are reporting the matter. It's their responsibility to report this as a major, major incident. At least they are serious about it, and have some clue about what the ramifications of it can be around the world. In my opinion, it isn't some political game to be bandied around the internet, people with no shred of knowledge or expertise issuing high moral proclamations.
I would think that CJR would take the high road, and try to provide more light than more heat.
#7 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 07:47 PM
Amazon caved to political pressure from Joe Liebermann?!? Gosh, I'm stunned...not that Amazon caved but that Joe Liebermann has any political clout at all. Amazon should not have caved to any political pressure. They should have said "show us the subpoena" and gone to court. As it is, they certainly lost my business. Why deal with company one cannot trust?
Wikileaks has done all of a favor by provoking a civil discourse about how our government (and other governments) act behind our backs and behind closed doors. It has also done a big SERVICE to the U.S. intelligence community by showing up just how fragile and sieve-like their security measures really are. Why SIPRNET access was ever given to the State department without severe and strong access regulations in place should be deeply scrutinized. It is well-known in the intel community that State never saw a secret it could keep. (The bigger problem, of course, is why are people allowed to download, upload, copy information to and from computers in the first place. Having worked in the intel field for a number of years, I can say that most of our computers did not have upload capacity and if I wanted to upload data I would have to have permission from higher up in the chain. It is unbelievable that one 23 year-old, Manning, could have downloaded and copied hundreds of thousands of files and no one the wiser. The U.S. government should be thanking Wikileaks for pointing out security loopholes!)
As to the damage that may or may not have been done, what is more damaging--that we are now actually privy to the inanities of the State department or that we have to bear witness to the fact that non-professionals should never be appointed as foreign diplomats, and have access to secure computers?!? Governments will have secrets. It is debatable if everything that government does should be kept secret. We are not dealing with human beings whose intelligence is better than our own. We are dealing with human beings who have likes and dislikes and biases and some of that shows up in the leaked data.
This is a wake-up call to all of us. We should know who runs the internet, and if we the people want to control it then we need to step up and start saying, and doing, so. If all it takes is one phone call from Joe Schmuck to stop traffic, then we are in deeper trouble than we knew.
#8 Posted by repar, CJR on Fri 3 Dec 2010 at 11:36 PM
I don't think it is any surprise to anybody that President Mubarak thinks Iran are big fat liars. I don't think anybody outside of Iran really thinks that Iran is anything close to being trustworthy. They make all kinds of ridiculous statements like the holocaust didn't happen. Everybody knows there are half a trillion dollars worth of bribes going through Russia, that as a political matter it is a cleptocracy. But people in Egypt, obviously Mubarak makes efforts to be careful to not let people in Egypt know that's how he feels as a lot of the population thinks highly of the Iranian Government and he is quite open to being referred to as being a puppet of the US and all kinds of other nasty accusations being made against him. There is the broader question of how can you expect people to speak them mind in diplomatic conferences if there is a strong possibility these private talks could come back to haunt them. It's dangerous. I mean diplomats are fairly cynical but even they have their limits. It's pretty hard to deal with people when they hear people talking behind their back about them. It chills free flow of speech and interferes with the process.
I mean we are talking about transparency in international diplomacy....lol...Anybody who thinks there should be transparency in the Obama administration is naive. You can't conduct diplomacy in the open. Nobody has or ever will.
#9 Posted by pacelegal, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 05:51 AM
From my reading, it appears that the issue of whether the Wikileaks material is legal for publication or not has been solved years ago, therefore, the legality of publication really isn't an issue. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._United_States
If it's simply an issue of commercial interests, and it appears to be so, then the solution is for those who don't support Amazon's decision to not support their business, using the only pressure they seem to want to understand and respond to. There are plenty of other places to buy things. Those places may or may not agree with me, but they haven't yet made the definite and offensive statement that Amazon has made. Amazon made a bad step in this by definitively indicating where they stand on investigative journalism. It was a choice they could have remained passive on, but they chose not to.
For a company founded on book publishing, I believe they took the wrong stand. Anyone who is concerned about the role of journalism takes on the internet should find Amazon's position to be that of an enemy. Daniel Ellsberg pparently agrees with me, and is calling for a boycott of Amazon, which I will be supporting.
#10 Posted by Michael, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 11:03 AM
I just called Amazon to give them feedback. If you do business with them (as I assume that many people have), please let them know how you feel about this issue. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/general-questions.html?ie=UTF8&browse_node_id=518316
Or Google for "how to contact amazon by telephone".
#11 Posted by un1xl0ser, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 11:21 AM
Wow. Just wow. The liberals have gone around the bend on this.
The leaker, Manning or whoever, didn't do what Ellsberg did, he did what Aldrich Ames did, what John Walker did. They were spies who did untold damage to US interests, and so did the leaker. Except he did it in one big dump instead of over a period of years. Nobody even knows yet how much damage is to come.And the liberals are celebrating this guy as a "hero" for what he has done.
And then they pull a misguided boycott of companies who don't want to host damaging stolen material on their servers, which is their right to do under the terms of their contract with their customers and a good business decision as well.
I disassociate myself completely in every possible way from what these contemptible liberals are doing. I couldn't be more profoundly disgusted.
#12 Posted by James, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 01:01 PM
@JAMES and any others that consider Wikileaks and its owners 'criminals'...
Julian Assange is a true World Hero for his expose of the massive corruption and criminality that now exists at the highest level of governments around the world.
The TRUE CRIMINALS who are in the highest positions in the United States Government took an OATH to PROTECT OUR COUNTRY AND ITS CITIZENS from ENEMIES, WITHIN AND WITHOUT.
Instead, they have BECOME our country's most TREASONOUS enemies by destroying our medium of exchange (and the world's reserve currency) and thus, our economy, and others are going to collapse soon due to HYPER-INFLATION.
They have STOLEN THE ASSETS of the country and passed them out to the already WEALTHIEST AND GREEDIEST among us, all for nothing but GREED and POWER.
They have exhibited not the slightest intention towards 'PROTECTING' our country, so any thought that the Wikileaks distribution of the PROOF of their criminality CAN'T POSSIBLY be thought of as 'damaging our National Security'.
That is the position of a fool who is brainwashed by the never ending xenophobic propaganda of THE STATE, which cares little for the population that it uses as its 'cash cow' to fund its evil policies of aggression against its 'made up' enemies created to keep the populace in a state of fear and dependence on the government's military might.
You will soon see the result of the damage done by George W. Bush's criminal policies and the further continuation of the damage by the Obama administration that has done the OPPOSITE of all that Mr. Obama 'pledged' to do before his election to the highest position in our land.
Corporate and Financial companies are raping our land in every sense as they 'buy' our so-called 'elected' representatives who then make laws that increase the ability of these corporate criminals to further pillage what is now left of our once great country.
#13 Posted by Cedric Ward, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 01:29 PM
You've gone off into looney-land. I didn't say anything about Wikileaks or its owner Assange. Reading comprehension is the first step towards rationality.
#14 Posted by James, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 01:34 PM
@james
You should re-read your own posts and see how you 'emphatically' IMPLY that both Manning AND Wikileaks have done CRIMINAL DAMAGE to our National Security.
You appear to have the type of 'rationality' that is inherent in the current Right Wing Uber Patriot segment of the population who can only view our country as being 'right' in all it does and somehow ordained by some gaseous vertebrate floating above to be the 'director' on the planet as to how all others should behave.
You label anyone who has an opinion different from yours as 'looney' and 'liberal'.
That is NOT an example of 'rational' behavior.
Look in a mirror once in a while.
#15 Posted by Cedric Ward, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 02:13 PM
It is possible to distinguish between the leaker, Manning or whoever, and Assange and his Wikileaks as to the legality of their acts. Since Assange is not an American, one can hardly accuse him of treason. I do accuse Manning, or whoever the leaker is, of doing the equivalent of the notorious spies that I listed. I consider him a traitor, as he took an oath to defend his country as a military officer, IF he is the leader, which hasn't been proven thus far.
The owner of Wikileaks has no allegiance to the US, and evidently, as far as US law (but perhaps not the laws of other countries) has the right to post the stolen material. I made no accusation against Assange about doing "criminal damage" to the US. Damage, yes, but evidently that damage is not a criminal offense.
I noted that Amazon and PayPal have the absolute right -- and perhaps the duty -- to refuse to host the stolen materials and commended them for doing so.
I made no accusation about the New York Times or other publishers of the content either. It is their right and their duty to report this story. And I have been impressed with the responsibility that they have shown in that respect.
Finally, I have taken issue with CJR and other internet venues for going with the cheap headline mongering instead of addressing the relevant issues with respect to the leaker, Assange and Wikileaks, Amazon's responsibility with respect to hosting the material, and the reporting of the story.
#16 Posted by James, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 02:33 PM
James,
You wrote: "The leaker, Manning or whoever, didn't do what Ellsberg did". I dot understand. There are a thousand differences between the two actions. Which ones are you talking about?
#17 Posted by Seth, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 07:59 PM
Daniel Ellsberg leaked a *report* to the New York Times that detailed the ways that Johnson and prior administrations had misled Congress and the American public on Viet Nam. The report contained vetted material facts and expert analysis on a specific subject, and to my knowledge posed no direct threat of life and limb to any innocent person.
By contrast, the leaker handed over to a foreign agent a large quantity of raw, unvetted material - cables, communiques, memoranda, other communications -- on every facet of our dealings and negotiations with other countries without regard to their truth, their completeness, their relevance to any specific subject, with the intention of having that material posted by the foreign agent publicly and internationally. In doing so, he, like the other despicable lowlifes Alrich Ames and John Walker, put innocent people and their families, their associates, at risk of arrest, torture, execution. He put the status of delicate negotiations and relationships with rogue nuclear states as well as our allies and partners around the world at risk. He made the work of the diplomats, the ambassadors, the field officers at the Department of State as well as civilian and military intelligence entities that work abroad in serving the interests of the United States much harder and more dangerous. There is no comparison whatsoever.
#18 Posted by James, CJR on Sat 4 Dec 2010 at 10:30 PM
Amazon appears to be well within its rights to refuse to host content that (at the least) was not controlled by Wikileaks.
To the extent that the leaks put real people’s lives at risk (and it appears that they do) it is unethical to post them or report them.
The revelations that diplomats say one thing publicly and contradict themselves privately is, I am sure, utterly shocking to journalists and other government officials.
The US is a relatively soft target. We'll see if Assange has the balls to follow through on revealing confidential info on Russia or China.
#19 Posted by JLD, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 08:58 AM
Regarding the first question, "Why do you think WikiLeaks chose Amazon servers in the first place," Assange implied recently that this was a deliberate decision, perhaps intended to highlight issues of free speech and censorship. It has certainly done that!
Assange in his Q&A with the Guardian:
"Since 2007 we have been deliberately placing some of our servers in jurisdictions that we suspected suffered a free speech deficit inorder to separate rhetoric from reality. Amazon was one of these cases."
#20 Posted by matt, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 09:03 AM
That's completely looney (of Assange) (and liberals who believe this is a "free speech" case).
1)Amazon has no "free speech" obligation whatsoever, except as it applies to good business practices.
2) Assange has no right to "free speech" under US law -- he isn't within the borders of the US;
3)Manning - if he is the leaker-- has no right to "free speech" because he is a member of the US armed forces.
4) And "free speech" only applies to the US government -- it certainly isn't a blanket right conferred all over the world.
5)And finally, "free speech" refers only to whether *the US government* can make laws regarding speech and expression and it most certainly doesn't protect anyone *at all* from the bad consequences of their "speech."
The liberals, many of whom I used to deeply respect, have gone off the deep end on this one.
#21 Posted by James, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 09:32 AM
"I disassociate myself completely in every possible way from what these contemptible liberals are doing. I couldn't be more profoundly disgusted."
The language is a little strong there, comrade. You may have a difference of opinion with the people who support Manning / wikileaks, but let's not assume they are irrational America haters just because they've come to the conclusion that their government lacks transparency.
And I don't pretend to know Manning's motives, but in the cases of Walker and Ames they both released information in lieu of money. Whatever the basis of Manning's actions, they weren't personal profit (fame? integrity? Ida know.) If people agree with his actions, they may have a rational basis for doing so, especially when the agent of release isn't some government who could directly capitalize based on the released info, but to wikileaks which has redacted the info to preserve some secrecy based on past complaints.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/3/is_wikileaks_julian_assange_a_hero
And at least Manning and wikileads aren't part of some well funded, private, espionage campaign to shut down civil action groups and preserve government and private power (unlike the stuff going on in this under reported story which should be tied into the Climategate scandal).
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/3/greenpeace_sues_chemical_companies_for_corporate
Take it easy at any rate.
#22 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 11:07 AM
amazon is a red herring, and you've all bitten into it. distributed content distribution using bittorrent or other means (of which the hackers and geeks at wikileaks are undoubtedly aware) seems to make the questions of "hosting" content irrelevant. in these systemic networks, the content is hosted on a vast array of personal computers in small bits and then widely shared. the wikileaks.org site, or other such publicly accessible site, is merely the symbolic figurehead of a vast and seemingly unstoppable content distribution system. to host the figurehead at amazon was perhaps expedient, but more likely a direct challenge to its seemingly unassailable position as defacto content distribution mechanism for the world. using bittorrent, you can (still, right now) get the entire cable set (about 10mb zipped) in a few minutes, if you'd really like.
#23 Posted by subminimal, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 11:36 AM
James,
As I see it, this is a free speech issue in an ideological sense as much as in a legal sense. Certainly Amazon is entitled to vet content hosted on their servers as a business prerogative. Whether their decision in this case was contractually valid I don't know. The real issue highlighted by its decision (alongside Paypal, colleges, libraries etc) is that the US Government is able to restrict the exchange of information in a blatantly extralegal fashion. If wikileaks/Amazon are publishing information illegally, as is claimed, then the appropriate response is to seek a court order to that effect and injunctions to stop it. Instead we see a government suppressing information by simply announcing that it is illegal and making threats against anyone who disagrees. Whether the FIrst Amendment is in play or not, I do think it's fair to say there is a "free speech deficit" in such circumstances.
#24 Posted by matt, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 12:30 PM
Please provide clear evidence of your dubious assertions:
..the US Government is able to restrict the exchange of information in a blatantly extralegal fashion.
How exactly have they "restricted" the "exchange" of information and how was it "blatantly extralegal"? Please provide credible evidence that they have done this, and explain exactly how the actions were "extralegal"? I'll expect chapter and verse.
Instead we see a government suppressing information by simply announcing that it is illegal and making threats against anyone who disagrees.
Please provide a clear explanation of why the US government should not be able to classify material relating to sensitive negotiations with and concerning rogue nuclear states, work products relating to field operations of our diplomatic corps, summaries of confidential meetings and conversations of international actors and leaders, confidential assessments of emerging situations on the international stage.
Next, please detail these "threats" against "anyone who disagrees" as opposed to explaining to people who access stolen classified material that they may be at risk of violating US law.
#25 Posted by Jamesj, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 12:49 PM
How exactly have they "restricted" the "exchange" of information and how was it "blatantly extralegal"? Please provide credible evidence that they have done this, and explain exactly how the actions were "extralegal"? I'll expect chapter and verse.
The first sentence of this article describes Amazon's decision as "a move that is widely assumed to be a direct response to pressure from the Senate Homeland Security Committee." I'm not sure which part of my statement you disagree with, but obviously I assume there is some truth in this report (and the many similar). I consider that a government applying this kind of pressure against publishers and consumers of particular information certainly restricts the exchange of that information. It is extralegal because to my knowledge no law has been passed and no court ruling has been made to prohibit Amazon, libraries or colleges allowing access to the wikileaks website. It also bypasses the established channels for dealing with illegal content.
If the Government has applied no such pressure, publicly or privately, then I rescind all comments.
Please provide a clear explanation of why the US government should not be able to classify material relating to sensitive negotiations...
I made no claim about this.
Next, please detail these "threats" against "anyone who disagrees" as opposed to explaining to people who access stolen classified material that they may be at risk of violating US law.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
#26 Posted by matt, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 02:40 PM
Because something is "widely assumed" does not mean there is any truth to the assumption, and certainly doesn't qualify as evidence. In fact, Amazon denies they were pressured and have stated that it was a business decision. And IF Amazon is lying about that -- which I do not concede-- exactly how is "pressure" from DHS or any other government entity outside of legal bounds, which you are asserting with your claim of "extralegal."
First of all, there is no obligation for Congressional oversight committees or the Executive Branch to seek legal permission from the courts before they attempt to deal with a massive breach of security. That's nutty. Pure moonbattery. Secondly, there is *already* a number of laws that prohibit the dissemination of and the accessing of classified material. Are you saying that warning people of the consequences of accessing classified information and stolen documents is somehow illegal and out of bounds? That's a crazy assertion. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. In fact, attending training programs doing exactly that is a requirement for government workers in order to obtains security clearances.
I urge you to go to TPM, whose readers that actually know what they are talking about, have provided some context to these warnings from the government to the Library of Congress and other government agencies and people to access computers at those agencies. I'd plead with you to read something other than screaming liberal blogs and educate yourself with material from the real world. Here is some reading material for you to get started. US plans diplomatic shake-up after WikiLeaks: report - Yahoo! News
I think that liberals have gone completely off the deep end on this, siding with and defending a traitorous spy and a foreign agent with shrill, puerile Dungeons and Dragons arguments of "free speech" and "transparency", completely ignoring the damage and dangerous consequences of this massive breach. It's contemptible and foolish and every bit as radical as what the Tea Party is doing. I for one want to part of it.
#27 Posted by James, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 04:14 PM
Again with the characterizations. Look, if the government had proven over the last 10 years to be responsible with the secrecy process, if they hadn't used the secrecy process to cover violations of international law (torture, kidnapping), to hide bailouts of large banks foreign and domestic, to hide violations of American privacy, to prevent civil and criminal suits from reaching the courts, and a host of other things I'd be there with you.
But when the government has abused the secrecy process with the impunity it has, and this includes the Obama Administration, then that tool needs to be taken away, if not broken.
Especially when the state secrets privilege is a relatively recent thing that relied on a shaky judicial decision making in order to prevent a routine lawsuit against the government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Reynolds
If you ask me to pick sides between the US government of recent days and Julian Assange, I'm going to go with Julie.
And so should the press that relies on the release of government information to serve its primary functions.
#28 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 06:01 PM
I have to agree with submininal that the Amazon issue is something of a red herring. It's not clear that Amazon's decision to pull its servers is actually preventing people from downloading this material or making it less likely that they can, but I think it's a key question that doesn't get much focus in the story. If the answer to it is no then the issue of whether the decision was morally suspect strikes me as of considerably less relevant.
#29 Posted by brianp, CJR on Sun 5 Dec 2010 at 09:37 PM
The "state secrets" issue and over-classification of documents are totally irrelevant red herrings as well. What the hell does "state secrets" have to do with this massive breach of diplomatic dealings of the US government? And fuzzy-headed liberals are in no position to judge whether a given document has been "over-classified." That's totally irrelevant to the Wikileaks issue. You are arguing like a rightwinger -- instead of making your case, all you can do is pull out your long list of grievances as petty red herrings because you have no real argument.
In all likelihood someone could have obtained these documents through FOIA for legitimate purposes, and it would have given DoS a chance to redact parts that would have put innocent people in danger, or compromised delicate negotiations with rogue nuclear states and allies. The traitor Manning, or whoever the leaker is, didn't even know what he was handing over to a foreign agent -- he just stole everything he could get his hands on. And you "choose" these malevolent people over your own country's diplomatic corps? That's contemptible.
The liberals are completely discrediting themselves on this. I remember back in the 1970's the liberals were all into 'radical chic' where wealthy liberals would hold fundraisers for violent radical groups. It showed extremely poor judgment and garnered a lot of resentment, *shock* and resentment, and as a result, the liberals were discredited and marginalized for the best part of three decades. Here I see the same thing happening -- liberals going off the rails in a similar fashion but opposite direction as the rightwing extremists. Responsible people would do well to distance themselves from this contemptible business.
#30 Posted by James, CJR on Mon 6 Dec 2010 at 06:20 AM
I'm willing to see your point that some government secrets should be protected, especially if those secrets are what protect individuals from harm for their actions (though if you want to get technical, those people who are assisting America could be classified as 'contemptible Mannings' when viewed through the lens of their home governments, but whatever). I don't think you are contemptible for wanting to protect government secrets, even when the conduct of that government is atrocious.
And I don't think that people who see the release of government information as a good thing contemptible. There are pros and cons to each position which should be discussed, but won't be because you've started off with the 'fuzzy headed, contemptible liberal' premise.
By the by I don't think Manning deserves anything but the book thrown at him for his actions. When someone violates policy and law outside of the procedures designed to handle such things when necessary then he should get punished. That's the risk he took.
Do I see a public benefit to the release of these documents? Yes and I don't think it's contemptible to claim that as well.
"And you "choose" these malevolent people over your own country's diplomatic corps? That's contemptible."
I choose people over country, principle over country all the time. Country is a construct built to give an area of people an identity. It is as moral as its leaders choose to make it. When my country fails my ideals for the crass reasons people often do things, then I don't support my country. Justice means more to me than patriotism. I don't think that makes me contemptible. I have my reasons, you have yours.
If you want a discussion, it should be about the reasons and not the labels.
#31 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 6 Dec 2010 at 10:45 AM
And why is the press ignoring stories lie these?
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/16/the_nation__docs_reveals_blackwater
#32 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 6 Dec 2010 at 10:57 AM
What I find amazing in this whole Wikileaks debate is the default position of so many people that protecting government secrecy is of overwhelming importance while that same (US) government is intent on unrestricted prying into the affairs of it's own (and others') citizens to the extent not only of wiretapping their communications (without warrant and in violation of the law in many cases) confiscating and scanning their communications devices and computers (at airports) to even groping their body parts.
Personal privacy and freedom can be discarded by the government at whim and hardly anyone complains. However, the moment someone casts light on the conduct of the government - especially when illegal, embarassing or merely inept - and the howls of outrage begin.
Land of the free. I see.
#33 Posted by Mike Funnell, CJR on Mon 6 Dec 2010 at 10:50 PM
Really? Please point to examples in the stolen Wikileaks material that is evidence of "illegal, embarassing or merely inept" actions.
I fail to see what relevance the TSA screenings or the NSA spying scandal, or "personal privacy" has to the stolen Wikileaks material, which is from the Department of State. You sound like a liberal version of a Tea Partier -- vague, inchoate fury at ...something! Gubment bad!!!
#34 Posted by James, CJR on Tue 7 Dec 2010 at 02:15 AM
Oh, now I see. The government has an absolute and ureviewable right to pry into the personal affairs and body parts of any and every private person. However, no private person nor the population in general should ever know anything the government say is secret, and their mere say so is sufficient and (again) unreviewable.
A perfect balance has been achieved. Freedom lives! I'm so happy.
#35 Posted by Mike Funnell, CJR on Tue 7 Dec 2010 at 05:04 AM
According to McClatchy, the big deal you're making, James, isn't all that big.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/11/28/104404/officials-may-be-overstating-the.html
#36 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 7 Dec 2010 at 07:32 AM
I'm very relieved that in the two weeks since the stolen State Department material has been online that McClatchy has not found any evidence of mass, public executions as a result of the material contained in that material. That is indeed a relief. And let us hope that no harm comes to anyone as a result of these crimes. And let us hope that no useful information about US interests was contained in the stolen material such that it is usable to terrorist organizations or rogue nuclear states. How will we know that? When will we know that for sure? Another week? Months? Years?
#37 Posted by James, CJR on Tue 7 Dec 2010 at 08:46 PM
The problem is the internet is founded upon private investment in the
first place because the public sector is both too incompetent and
underfunded to have ever extended the use of the internet to the
status it holds now. This is not true in other countries, where the
government is the one laying the cables (most often in small, rich
countries but they have superior internet as a result.. in contrast,
china controls the cables but they also control content). Our whole
telecomm experience actually lags behind the rest of the modernized
world because it's so monopolized by corporations (even behind some
developing countries, where true market competition exists). But that
aside, there is no way the government will ever take reigns over
telecommunications (our values are so against it, plus it probably
would be inefficient), nor does it have the political drive, know-how,
or balls to properly regulate it at present (for example, the FTC
recently proposed a "don't track me" software solution to protect
"private information" without considering how they could possibly
police such an effort). I fail to believe the gov't isn't behind the
DDOS attacks, at least indirectly. What kind of self-respecting
independent hacker would take action against someone trying to free
information over the internet? Not only does the government probably
engage in this anonymous attack on private interests without legal
authority or blame, but they also go so far as to incite other
countries to hunt this guy (Assange) down and bring charges against
him (conspiracy theory ofc, but come on, too convenient?) I fail to
believe they also aren't behind pressuring the private sector into
taking down content. What would a private corporation do in this
situation under normal circumstances? Is there a strong enough public
backlash that they would actually be boycotted by independent
citizens? Are they really subject to suit under existing law for
merely FACILITATING free speech that others elect to take? Would they
really police their own users when the existing practice is to send
warnings because enforcement against facilitators of electronic
content is so limited? I don't believe any bit of it. I see a direct
parallel between this action and that of the regimes in Iran and
China. When private individuals incite instability that threaten the
GOVERNMENT's image and self-interest, their right to free speech is
restricted, and the charges thrown against them are barely legal
(possibly even morally wrong) and without clear public backing. I
think it is a precursor to tyranny, and the government, which has a
habit of overreacting to Four Loko, has to be careful with what they
do before they abridge our rights too much.
#38 Posted by Niu, CJR on Wed 8 Dec 2010 at 03:31 PM